Log Date: 12/15/96
Log Participants:
	Natil, Savah, Winnowill, MountainWart, WinterSong, WaveDancer,
Kiera, Kytek, Cutter, Firesong, Alorn, Reedsnap
Log Summary:
	This is the chiefmeet held on 12/15/96; since Geolin was not
available as usual to run the meeting, Natil ran the meeting for
most of the discussion and was helped by Winnowill after she had
to bamf to deal with plumbing problems.
	Topics touched upon included:
	* The communication between Obsidian and the Northern Trolls
	* Ratios of Recognitions to deaths
	* The affect of all the attempts to start new tribes on
Two Moons MUSH
	* Winnowill's attempt to start a 'Glider hold'
	* How to jumsptart roleplay for the Raft Elves and whether
they should merge with the Island tribe.

[Part I of this log, from Winnowill's POV]

<Chiefs> Savah could step in and lead the chiefmeet, as of old. But then agian,
  Geolin really should be there.

<Chiefs> Kiera nods, "He has the agenda...and yesterday it sounded like he
  remembered."

<Chiefs> Firesong says "Doesn't he have the agenda."

<Chiefs> Winnowill agrees. That, and the site for the meet is not Jump_ok

<Chiefs> Savah says "We could gather and talk randomly, which might be
  interesting as well. Room can always be found."

You head towards the Hall of Memories.
Hall of Memories(#6308RAJL)
Perhaps this is the room in which Winnowill retreats to think.

<Chiefs> Winnowill offers #6308 ... pardon the lack of desc.

MountainWart has arrived.

Winnowill nods.

MountainWart waves.

WaveDancer has arrived.

Firesong has arrived.

Savah has arrived.
Savah smiles in greeting.

MountainWart waves to all.

Winnowill nods cordially. (For once)

Firesong crash lands, "Hello Everybody."

WaveDancer splashes in. "Heyla!"

Kiera has arrived.

WinterSong has arrived.

Savah looks at several unfamiliar names. "It's been too long since I was at one
  of these meetings."

Kiera notes that she is puppeting WinterSong with orders on what she thinks
  about various things, just so you all know. :)

MountainWart snorts. Me, too.

Winnowill pats her dark sister. "I'm certain you'll get used to it."

MountainWart says, "Before we get started, something has happened lately that
  disturbed me quite a bit, and I'd like to get feedback on whether I should be
  guilty or put out.

WaveDancer plops down and listens.

MountainWart says "Okay, some or all of you may know of Obsidian... and his
  conquest of the Southern tunnels."

Winnowill nods.

Firesong heard someting about it.

Kiera heard a little.

MountainWart says "Well, the TP that had the overthrow of one of the two Troll
  tribes was done before he had his background set. He wanted it set to
  Northern. Now I didn't mind that a bit, but his excuse for not doing it
  -before- the tp is that I wasn't on. I had an alt on the whole day and
  obsessively do mail checks. No +mail, went straight to the wizards."

Savah is not familiar with this, herself.

Winnowill thinks 'put-out' would be correct

Kiera nods agreement, "Yeah. I agree with Winnowill."

Firesong thirds that, "I would definately be put-out."

MountainWart takes his chiefing seriously and feels... circumvented. "Well,
  this guy is king of Southern trolls now, and is talking about what his
  intentions are with the north, although he's not bothered to -ask- me what I
  intend. I'm treated as a nonentity.

Savah eyes the +wizards. "They are supposed to have somebody aroudn for the
  chiefmeet."

MountainWart growls.

Savah wonders vaguely if he's been mailing the wrong troll, or not at all.

MountainWart says "He and Picknose seem to have been in cahoots... that's all I
  know."
MountainWart shrugs, "It makes me feel useless. I've tried to get RP in the
  tunnels and what I get are individuals with power trips. I don't know what
  else to do."

Savah says "I'd suggest asking for a meeting with him and a wiz present to talk
  it out."

MountainWart grins wryly, "We're fighting over a tribe that essentially doesn't
  exist."
MountainWart says "When was the last time you saw trolls logged on and RPing
  besides the overthrow thingee? Maybe he's got the right idea, get rid of the
  last of the 'whole character' trolls and just make us bad guys again. At
  least we'd get rp."
MountainWart stops sulking now and hands the floor to whoever

You say "The first thing I should try to remember that this is a game. Granted,
  things aren't going to go smoothly, but fighting OOCly is moot over a game. I
  definately would look to a Wizard to help."

Savah says "I understand your frustration. But I don't think it will go away on
  its own, and talking to others than those involved is likely to be of little
  help. I concur with Winnowill."

Firesong says "I would also look at ways that this tp can increase rp. If the
  two troll tribes are in conflict with each other it may spark some rp in
  both."

MountainWart nods, "But talk to them and say what? Ask which of us they think
  can provide better RP for people? That's what I feel my role is, ultimately,
  as chief. To provide and facilitate rp. What keeps getting in the way is my
  unwillingness to become just a villan and my people's lack of participation.
  I suppose I can give up the former, but what can I do about the latter?"

WaveDancer says "Well... I'd tell them exactly what happened... and ask for an
  opinion"

MountainWart nods.

Savah says "I think it doesn't have to be a choice between one or the other
  style of play, necessarily."

Winnowill nods. Perhaps a truce of sorts. Regardless, if there is to be a
  takeover, hostile or not, Chiefs should be notified so that things do not
  escalate into a crisis situation and players end up going about half-cocked.

MountainWart nods, grinning. "Yep, my sentiment exactly. I think after I talk
  to the wizzes, we need a troll meeting."

Winnowill nods. Granted, not everyone is able to attend the meetings... perhaps
  due to RL or locational/Time Zone differentials. This is, after all, Exam
  Week at most Colleges

MountainWart nods and grins "Easier for us, cos there are so few active
  players."

Kiera says "There were 4 people at the beginning of my tribal meeting, not
  including me. :)"

Firesong says "The most widely attended tribal meeting we had was actually
  before we officially became a tribe. Since then we're lucky if we can get
  half-a-dozen."

WaveDancer says "My tribe held a meeting... and not even the Chief showed. I've
  got people... but nobody is home :("

Savah has not held a tribal meeting, finding little interest for it."Many
  people did respond to mail, though, when I held a poll over the death&recog
  issue."

Kiera says "I registered the mail and said anyone who didn't tell me they
  couldn't make it and didn't show didn't have a say in what we decided. It
  worked pretty well."

Winnowill notes that if she tried to orchestrate a tribemeet, no-one would show
  up. Most of all, those who most desperately needed the info, wouldn't be
  there.

Savah smiles to Winnowill. "That is rather typical. Not just for online
  meetings."

Firesong thinks that's one of Murphy's Laws.

Winnowill nods sadly. "True."

Kiera says "We're doing alright at this meeting, even if the chairman isn't
  here."

Winnowill nods, and agrees

Firesong says "Anything other topic anybody wants to talk about?"

Kiera says "I know that the number of new tribe proposals was on the agenda."

MountainWart bites his tongue. >:)

WaveDancer wonders why they want new tribes, when the ones that exist are
  failing?

MountainWart mutters something about too many chiefs, not enough Indians.

Kiera says "That's mostly what I think. And what WinterSong thinks."

Firesong says "Because starting up a new tribe can be fun, and then things slow
  down after a while. So they need to start another one."

WinterSong nods, "Themain ideas for these tribes are pretty good. I just think
  that our players are spread too thinly. People can only keep so many alts
  active."

WaveDancer says "Amen."

Savah says "That's the same old story as ever.. making a new tribe is so much
  more fun than playing in an old one. I think/hope the wizards have gotten a
  little more restrictive."

MountainWart nods, just hoping that his tribe that is made exclusively of his
  old ex-lovers (positions available) makes it through! >:)
MountainWart needs a firestarter, a bone shaper, an astronaut and teacher
  barbie!

Kiera says "I spoke a little to Natil about the alternate catelf tribe which is
  particularly worrying me as far as the life of my tribe goes."
Kiera says "And there she is. :)"

Savah grins at MW.

Natil hops in, wrinkles her nose, sees that she's late, but also sees that
  Geolin is. Have you guys started without him?

Savah says "Ah, a wizard!"
Savah says "Just general talk, for now :)"

Kiera nods. :)

Natil noddles and settles down. Okay, she's here.

Savah looks around for Geo. "Do we start without him?"

Kiera says "It's been an hour now..."

Savah misses the old Q, and thinks we should, then. "Anybody remember the
  agenda?"

Natil says "The Q is up in the wizard council room, I expect. As for agenda,
  Geo would be the one who had it."

Savah says "Well, death and Recog was one item."

Natil hrf. Well, I suppose we'd better have something. I just fingered Geolin's
  account; he's not connected. I'll start a log.

Kiera nods.

[Part II of this log from Natil's POV]

You say "Okay, I'm logging, folks; do we want to start with the death 'n' 
  Recognition topic?"

Savah nods, and raises her hand to speak.

Natil hands Savah the floor. Page Natil to get on the Q.

Savah says "I held a vote in Sorrow's End. There was an exact tie between the 
  Aye's and Nay's on the death before Recognition thing, with a few 
  abstaining."

Winnowill pages: Q?

You paged Winnowill with 'Acknowledged.'.

Savah says "My personal feeling is this: A death would only affect 
  Recognitions within the same area. A dead goback would not trigger a Sorrow 
  Recognition. THus, the matter of the ratio should be up to the chief of each 
  area."

From afar, MountainWart wants to make comments about localized death/birth 
  ratios.

Savah says "If a chief wants 1:1 in their tribe, fine, they can decide on it. 
  THe only problem is that Random Recogs could upset their plans...but those 
  are rare, and can be gotten around by demanding rmate status to be CHOICE 
  for all tribe members."

You paged MountainWart with 'You're on the Q after Savah and Winnowill. 
  Danke.'.

From afar, WinterSong would like to comment.

Savah wouldn't do that herself, but it's an option. "I'm done."

From afar, Winnowill shakes her head. What -is- it?

You paged WinterSong with 'You're on the Q after Savah and Mountainwart.'.

You say "Mountainwart, you're on the Q now."
You say "You're next, that is."

From afar, WaveDancer follows now, and ... Q

MountainWart says "I was just gonna mention that we did something similar with 
  the Gobacks at one point. Although in my mind having a person who wants to 
  play a child and has a good concept would make exception to the rule. I'd 
  not okay any births without an app from the potential child character. Kids 
  aren't puppets, and we got too many unplayed children. Done."

You paged Winnowill with 'It's an automatic frob to keep track of question 
  queues for meetings.'.

From afar, Kiera would also like to make a comment as Kir. (I'm puppeting 
  Wsong with a short list of her feelings on some issues.)

From afar, Winnowill will have to get info on that later...

From afar, Savah would like a remark on that?

You paged WinterSong with 'You're up.'.

You multipage, to Kiera, Savah: "After Wintersong it's Kiera, and then back to 
  Savah."

WinterSong says "WinterSong mailed her tribe about this topic and got no 
  response, either negative or positive. She herself feels that the one death, 
  one birth would work well. Would that include things like ideldested 
  characters, though? She had something like 15 idledest and only two births 
  are replacing them."

Natil jumps in here long enough to note that idledested characters, as a MUSH 
  general policy, are NOT considered dead on the grounds that we do not know 
  when/if their players will someday come back and want to play the same 
  character again. I would consider talking to the other wizards about 
  altering this policy to be on a tribal-decision basis, but we would at the 
  very least require tribes instituting this policy to be doing it with the 
  full knowledge and support of their members.
You say "Pray continue, Wintersong."

WinterSong says "If the 1:1 ratio is implemented, without that policy being 
  changed, then Grove may perish. We have 17 now, will have 19 pretty soon, 
  but since we rarely actually have our character die we wouldn't have any 
  more recogs. That's all I had to say. :)"

You paged Kiera with 'You're up.'.

Long distance to Winnowill: Natil belatedly nods re: Q. Bug me after the meet 
  is over. :)

Winnowill slips in a comment as to why Gliders rarely Recs.

Savah says "Except in the past tense :)"

You say "Winnie dearest, you're not on the queue. ;) Kiera is next, so make it 
  fast."

Long distance to WaveDancer: Natil peers. Did I miss a request from you for 
  queue?

Natil watches Kiera lag and hands the floor to Winnie. Winnie, you're up, then 
  Savah.

From afar, WaveDancer nods... but it can keep

Kiera says "My tribe had a meeting last week and this was brought up. While no 
  one was saying that this was perfect, everyone agreed that something needed 
  to be done and this might work well. My own personal feelings is that 1:1 as 
  far as choice Recognitions would be very good within each tribe. if the two 
  are from different tribes, the tribe where the resulting child will probably 
  spend it's time would need the death. I feel that random recognitions shoul 
  be unaffected by that, since they aren't all that common. I've had one 
  within my tribe in the past RL year."

Natil ah, thank you, Kiera.

Kytek pages: Chiefmeet? <blink> Did Shay know about it?

You paged Kytek with 'Shay was the one who theoretically scheduled it, but her 
  player is not around.'.

You say "Are you done, Kiera?"

From afar, Kytek nods his head, "Hmm, interesting. :)

Kiera nods, "Yep."

You say "Danke. Savah?"

Savah says "Just a remark on the apping for cubs... It will be two months from 
  an app is approved until a child is born and another two until it is really 
  playable. Four months is a long time to expect people to be around - perhaps 
  something like Natil's NPC register would work better?"

Natil .oO (I have GOT to finish that code.)

Kiera says "NPC register?"

Savah points at Natil to explain. And adds one more thing.

You say "Yes. For those of you who aren't aware, I have an NPC database I use 
  for the Scattered Tribe, which I am planning to make global so that all 
  tribes may have an NPC database. NPCs can in general be relatives of player 
  characters who need players, characters who have gone idle, and it will keep 
  track of dead names for a tribe as well."
You say "Go on, Savah."

Savah says "About idledests and such.. a 1:1 enforced policy would also 
  prevent new tribes from growing other than by taking members from old 
  tribes. I'm not sure if this is good or bad. In either case, I still feel 
  that different tribes have different needs, and that as such the decision 
  really should be made on an individual basis. Nuff said, on that :)"

You say "Are you done, Savah?"
Natil takes the silence as the assumption that Savah is done. Winnowill, your 
  comment?

Savah is done, sorry :)

Winnowill says "For as long as ElfQuest has existed, Recognitions were Rare 
  within the Mountain. If the 1:1 ratio is implemented, will this too hold for 
  the Gliders? I'm afraid of causing altercations within all levels on this."

Savah gets paged by somebody from her inner paths, and looks embarrased as she 
  removes the jump_ok flag. Ahem.

You say "Well, as I mentioned, it would probably be implmented on a tribes' 
  discretion basis."

Winnowill nods. Done.

You say "Okay. Any further commentary on this issue, chiefs?"

Savah shakes head.

Winnowill feels that we have covered it.

Firesong doesn't have anything to add.

WaveDancer has nothing.

You say "Okay; speaking on behalf of the tribes I'm chief of..... at 
  Willowholt, we are pretty stable in size so it's not too likely that I'd 
  want to implement a 1:1 death/Recognition ratio there. I suspect my people 
  would squawk about it anyway. :) Scattered Tribe... that'd be pretty easy 
  since we have hordes of Scattered-bloods on the MUSH. Plainsrunners... also 
  relatively easy, as there are lots of Plainsrunners, both PC and NPC. Done. 
  Next topic?"

WaveDancer holds up her hand...?

You say "Speak. :)"

WaveDancer has a real problem with her tribe. She has lots of players, and yet 
  no-one in RP. On another MU*, she once told those non-active people to get 
  Active or get out. As she can't do that here, her hands are fairly well 
  tied. Any suggestions?

Savah tilts her head. "Is it really a problem to have them inactive, or just 
  not to have them active?"
Savah ers, and asks for the Q.

Natil hmms, and sees no clamor for q positions, so Savah's first. :) Pray 
  continue.

WaveDancer says "The tribe, in mine and Tynami's opinion is dying. :("

Natil sees a stunning lack of pages for the queue for this; any further 
  comments?

Savah says "Well... it seems to me that having a great number of inactive 
  players isn't really a problem for anyone but siteadmins worrying about 
  diskspace. So booting them isn't likely to help your tribe. I tend to be 
  patient about the tribe being slow myself, but when things get too much so I 
  find a bit of chiefly intervention helps. A Festival, a Disaster... 
  Sometimes, it only takes a little prompting."

Natil notes that Wavedancer and Tynami have tried several plots of that nature 
  already.

WaveDancer says "We had a festival. No-one came."

You say "And they've gotten a stunning lack of response, yes."
Natil throws this open for general discussion for a bit.

Savah nods. "Sometimes, it takes a lot of OOC prodding to get people doing 
  something, and even then it's hard. I suggests mailing the tribe and asking 
  if people are in favor if disbanding it. That should stir any who still are 
  interested."

Natil wants to know if you guys have any living NPCs to keep track of, 
  Wavedancer.

WaveDancer shakes her head. Those who have idledested, we gave the excuse died 
  in the flood.

Natil feels obligated to issue a general wizardly disapproval of declaring 
  idledested characters dead, in keeping with what I said earlier. :} If 
  you're going to have that kind of policy, you need to make sure the tribe is 
  aware of and deals with it. I wasn't TOO thrilled with Wolfhaven killing off 
  idledested characters in its earthquake, either.

You say "This prevents you, Wavedancer, from being able to allow any of those 
  characters to come back and RP should their players return; I would, if it 
  were me, simply say that the tribe _presumes_ them dead. It's a subtle 
  difference, but a notable one."

WaveDancer nods, and knows... and we were very careful to mention that they 
  were assumed to have been taken by the waves, and therefore dead. If any 
  come back, they probably got to shore.

Firesong says "Try to get people to log on, often people won't bother if there 
  isn't anybody else in the tribe on, but will pop in to see what's going on 
  if there are a bunch of people."

Natil nods. The remaining active people can _IC_ assume whatever they like, 
  but the ultimate fate of the characters is up to their owners.
Natil also notes that the Sea Elves in general are somewhat hampered in that 
  they are not the most popular flavor of elf to play by a long shot; 
  Wolfriders, Gliders, and Cat Elves all beat them out pretty hard.

WaveDancer smiles faintly. No kidding.

Savah says "Somebody did mention already that there are too many tribes. Are 
  there more than one flavor of Seaelves?"

Cutter has arrived.

You say "There are technically only one flavor of Sea Elves on TM; there are, 
  however, currently two Sea Elf tribes, the Rafters and the Island group."

WaveDancer says "Yes... and no. There's two holts... RaftHolt and the 
  IslandElves. (Thanks, Natil)"

Savah greets cutter.

You say "Hi Cutter. Our current topic, currently open for general discussion, 
  is the inactivity of the Raft tribe of Sea Elves."

Winnowill steps aside to make room for Cutter.

MountainWart pounces Cutter and hugs, then looks embarrassed. Wrong alt.

Savah says "Somebody did say there are too many tribes on the mush. Perhaps it 
  is time for a merger between the two... as I think have happened before."

Firesong says "The raft split off from the island tribe I believe, you may 
  want to think about merging the two."

Natil reports that the Rafters and the Island group are currently about the 
  same size, but also notes she hasn't seen too much in the way of active RP 
  out of the Islanders either.

WaveDancer nods, and has brought that up. Wonder how much bloodshed that'll 
  lead to...?

You say "That'd be up to the involved Sea Elves. :)"

WaveDancer fehs. If any get involved.

You say "Well, to start with, you'd want to see if the chiefs of the Island 
  tribe are interested, and if so, then you can think about details. If it 
  were me, I'd toss open the issue for general discussion amongst the Sea 
  Elves, then; if after a given time frame nobody responds, then run with it. 
  Or not."
Natil sighs as she gets bugged to deal with a plumbing problem. Somebody else 
  want to take over running the meeting? I'll still log, but I have to deal 
  with this.

WaveDancer nods. I'll have to get Tynami in on it at first... see what she has 
  to think of.

Winnowill assumes, then that this topic has closed. Any other topics to 
  suggest?

Savah mms. "Anybody still have the chieflist mails?"

Kiera never got them.

Savah thinks there was some talk about humans.

Firesong says "Well, we were starting to talk about new tribes."

Savah says "The dearth of activity in old ones, and the clamor for new ones. A 
  recurring problem, that."
Savah says "Everybody loves starting a tribe. Few like reviving old ones."
Savah vaguely considers recycling tribes, somehow.

Winnowill thinks perhaps that existing tribes need a 'makeover'...

WaveDancer watches Savah and Winnowill agree. Scary.

Savah is secretly Winnowill. With makeup.
Savah says "Setting up a tribe is a lot of OOC, wizardly work. Or was, when I 
  was a wiz. So just disbanding old ones and making new are not that easy."

Firesong says "Its very difficult sometimes to get people involved. We've had 
  several tp's in the olbar village where the only people who show up are the 
  chiefs."

WaveDancer says "So what can we do? Link a few tribes?"

Savah says "Sorrow's End has long periods of being dead, with shorter periods 
  of intense activity. usually because of some enthusiastic player prodding 
  people alive."
Savah says "I think people have alts in most tribes, and just log on to the 
  ones where they see activity. We'll either have to live with that, or do 
  something about alts. Which would be very hard."

Alorn has arrived.

Savah tends to favor the "limit the number of tribes severely" policy herself.
Savah says "If there were only four tribes on the mush, the chance of one 
  being active at any given time would rise."
Savah looks around, and smiles. "Either lag is bad, or not only the tribes are 
  idle.."
Savah is paged by a would-be chief wishing to attend...
Savah says "Natil, are you still here?"

Cutter is rather idle, and rather sick. He's a little spacy. Forgive him. "I 
  think limiting tribe number is a good idea, myself."

MountainWart is here, just listening.

Natil unidles. I'm here, though dealing with plumbing things.

Savah says "Natil, is the meet open to would-bes?"

Natil would like to repeat a couple of her points from the bboard. 1) Yes, we 
  have a lot of interest in generating new tribes right now, BUT, only one of 
  these groups has even submitted a formal application. Until we actually get 
  formal applications, that's all the talk is, just talk.
You say "2) While there is a legitimate argument in favor of limiting tribes, 
  I'll buy that, there's also the issue that a lot of our current tribes, 
  especially the Wolfrider ones, are closed to new members, or must take new 
  members from other tribes because they can't be born in the reasonably young 
  Wolfrider ones. If there are tribes that _ARE_ open to new players, the 
  tribes need to make sure this is known. Answer +mail quickly. Let newbies 
  _see_ them, or at least their chiefs, around for discussion."
You say "As for the meet being open to would-bes... well, would-be chiefs, 
  Savah?"

Savah says "Yes. Searches, specifically. He paged me to ask."
Savah says "Of course, limiting tribes severely would mean an end to closing 
  them."

Searcher pages: Scuse me, Anna. Can I attend the chiefmeet even though my 
  tribe is not accepted yet?

You paged Searcher with 'Not at the moment, please.'.

Natil pages Searcher; I don't want non-chiefs in here right now, or 
  non-wizards. :}

From afar, Searcher nods...

Savah nods gravely.

You say "Well, my point, Savah, is that in a way the tribes already _are_ 
  limited. It is extremely difficult to get a new character created in a lot 
  of instances; if you want to be a Wolfrider, there are a limited number of 
  things you can do about that. And a lot of the non-Wolfrider tribes, at 
  least the most popular ones, the Gliders and the Sun Folk, are often capped 
  out for size. The Cat Elves seem to be frequently capped out for size, too. 
  I for one am not exactly eager to force newbies to play character types that 
  they don't want -- I mean, what can we do? Tell people, "We have too many 
  Wolfriders and Gliders and Sun Villagers already, sorry, you have to play 
  these other kinds of characters or you can't play on TM at all?" "}"

Savah says "Sun Folk are not often capped out, really. THis is the first time 
  in..well, anytime I can remember that I put a cap on :}"

Kiera pages: Is this open discussion or queue? I missed the openening.

Winnowill has a plot under way that might allow for some opening of Gliders... 
  indeed a second Glider hold.

Savah says "I think we could limit the number of tribes, open them 
  completely... and set a cap on the number of alts a person can have."
Savah says "Seeing as how most people on here have at least 3-4 chars each, 
  most idle at any given time."

You paged Kiera with 'Open discussion, at the moment.'.

Savah raises an eyebrow at Winnowill, curiously.

Natil notes if this gets too hectic, people, I'm reinstating the Q.

Kiera says "Part of the capping is what makes playing the character special. 
  If you have to wait, or work hard to get a character, then you're less 
  likely to let it just sit there once you have it."

WaveDancer flings open the gates of RaftHolt. Let them come. :)

MountainWart says "More likely to just give up. I remember I nearly did."

Savah nods at Kiera.

Natil dislikes the idea of limiting the number of tribes, because she's always 
  getting frustration expressed to her from this and that newbie about how he 
  or she can't get into any tribe _AT ALL_. Newbies are getting upset already 
  with our extant number of tribes. We need places for these people to RP.

Savah says "That, too. I know I don't app to closed tribes, myself."

Firesong says "True, but new people get frustrated if they can't get into a 
  tribe, or just the tribe they want. Maybe we need a newbie tribe."

Savah says "Natil, I said limiting the number meant *not* putting a cap on the 
  tribes. Ie, anybody could join."

MountainWart grins evilly, offering to annhilate it... Bad me.

Winnowill says "How will Newbies learn if they are just bunched together?"

Kiera says "I keep a waiting list for my new people."

You say "Our newbies are showing up, and seeing Closed, Closed, Closed, 
  Closed, on this and that tribe; if they don't see a Closed tribe, they see a 
  tribe in which the chieftains aren't quickly answering their mail, or they 
  see a tribe where "nothing ever happens" -- they fail to grasp that RP is 
  not going to come to them automatically, it's something they have to help 
  contribute to."

Savah says "That would be solved by opening the tribes, not by making more new 
  ones to fill up with newbies."
Savah vaguely feels she isn't having luck expressing what she means.

MountainWart interjects that Gobacks are open, newbies responded to quickly in 
  +mail, and we have a policy of "trial RP" whereby anyone with a desc and 
  +info may participate in non-tp RP. Then they get accepted.

Natil nods to Savah. But the problem is, opening the tribes to anybody to join 
  would essentially mean, IMO, returning to the state we were in before we 
  instituted the Undecided state: i.e., the tribes fill to overflowing with 
  people who don't get a clue about what their characters are supposed to be 
  doing or what their history should be.

Savah nods at MW. "Sorrow, when open, lets anybody play as if they were a 
  member. They just can't get on channels and such.

Natil grins to Mountainwart; that's fine, tell the newbies, now. ;)

MountainWart says "We -still- have precious few applicants and those we get 
  just don't last. Of ten newbies, only two have stayed."

Winnowill says "Yet, if there's a tribe of nothing but Newbies... then what 
  good RP will come of it? It's also unfair to the newbie in question to drop 
  them into a tribe (newbie or not) and not give them a chance to learn how to 
  RP."

WaveDancer looks slightly spammed. Can we open the Q?

Savah says "They would still have to be approved. It just wouldn't be as 
  hopeless :)"

Natil declares that we must return to the Q. Okay, folks, page me for q 
  positions.

Savah nods about Q.

Winnowill pages: q

You say "Winnie, you're up."

Winnowill is concerned with having to open the Mountain. From what I 
  understand, the Gliders have always been closed, and are an app-only tribe. 
  When it wasn't... well, there were serious problems.

From afar, Kierawants to comment. :)

You paged Kiera with 'You're after Winnie. Danke.'.
You say "Folks, be sure to announce clearly when you're done. Thanks."

Winnowill says "I am currently working on a seperate 'Glider-Hold' plot that 
  will allow for some of the 'behind-the-scenes' NPC Gliders to come to the 
  front and take active roles. Nothing like the failed North Mountain."

From afar, Savah needs to clarify something. Can I just slip in a line?

You paged Savah with 'Let's stick to the Q, since people asked for it to come 
  back. You're after Kiera.'.

From afar, Savah okays.

Winnowill says "As it will still be a Glider group... the Mountain tribe is 
  going to no doubt swell from this new plot. Yes, Alorn. I know what you're 
  thinking."

Alorn stays very, very quiet.

Winnowill says "The 'ruler' of this seperate group will report to Me, and it 
  is an attempt to ... shall we say... extend the Glider sphere of influence."
Winnowill finishes, and looks for opinions.

You say "Kiera's next on the Q."

Natil also issues a general warning: there's a plumber coming to my house at 
  3pm, which is in about half an hour from now, my time zone. At this time, I 
  must bamf, to deal with plumber. If y'all wish to continue chiefmeeting at 
  that time, somebody who is not me is going to have to run the meeting. In 
  the meantime, please keep the comments coming, folks. :) Kiera?

Kiera says "All I want to say is that we don't have to just say, 'yeah sure, 
  show up at our door and we'll accept you.' We could still require people to 
  put work into their background, desc and character concept. Just because we 
  wouldn't have a number cap doesn't mean that people could just getting 
  without putting thought into their characters. I'm done/"

Natil danke. Savah?

Savah says "Clarification. When I said to open the tribes I meant open them to 
  apps - not open them to anybody without apps. As opposed to a closed tribe 
  being one that accepts no apps."
Savah grins. What Kiera said.
Savah says "I'm done."

Natil has an empty queue now.
Natil puts herself onto it.

Winnowill thinks this shows that perhaps our Chiefs are part of the Inactive 
  problem?

MountainWart says "In what way?"

Savah says "Idle chiefs for idle tribes?"

You say "Winnowill, your attempt to improve the playability of inactive 
  Gliders is laudable, though I'm thinking it's not necessarily relevant to 
  the issues at hand, right now. :) In general, in response to the issue of 
  having tribes open to anybdy with appropriate apps... well, IMO this will be 
  fine up to a point; there comes a time when a group gets just too darned big 
  to be really IC, since elves simply DO NOT breed that fast. Also, there 
  comes a point when a group is simply too big to easily manage. This is why 
  the Undecided policy was instituted. And folks, please stick to the queue, 
  since you asked for it to come back. I'm done. Thanks. :)"

Winnowill nods. Are the chiefs active in the tribes with activity problems?

Savah says "I think tribes would grow much slower if they were fewer, myself. 
  Less alts and all."
Savah ums. Sorry. Queue.

Firesong pages: I've got something to say.

You say "Firesong is next."

WaveDancer pages: Q

You paged WaveDancer with 'You're after Firesong.'.

Firesong acks and has a phonecall to answer, I give up the Q.

You say "Wavedancer, you're next."

WaveDancer admits to not being as active as she'd like to be... and I know 
  Tynami is lacking in accessability... but I'm mostly a Second in the 
  emergency sense. I don't even have the builder password. I think that it 
  does have an effect on the RP in a tribe if the Chief isn't actively on and 
  carrying a high profile. RaftHolt and RavenHolt are probably good examples. 
  Who even remembered RavenHolt was there until I just mentioned it?
WaveDancer says "I mean, there's a perfectly wide open WolfRider holt with 
  great RP potential... yet we all forget it's there."

Reedsnap has arrived.

WaveDancer notes her SO is the Chief of RavenHolt, so she tries to speak up on 
  his behalf.

Natil welcomes Reedsnap. Current topic is the inactivity of many tribes, and 
  what to do about it. Page me to get on the queue.

Reedsnap pages: Thanks!

WaveDancer says "I'm thinking that a lot of it is ... shall we call it 
  advertisement? We tend to forget the smaller tribes out here, and remember 
  only the big ones."

You paged Reedsnap with 'Ideas being bounced around are, limiting the number 
  of new tribes; opening all tribes to anybody with appropriate applications.'.

WaveDancer says "No-one can forget the Mountain... but that little wolftribe 
  at the foot of the Mountain gets overlooked."
WaveDancer is done witching. O:)

Cutter goes home.
Cutter has left.

Natil has an empty queue. And reminds that she is bamfing at 3pm Pacific, 6pm 
  Eastern. Any volunteers to take over running logging and queue at that point 
  would be appreciated.

Savah ahem.
Savah says "I think I tried for the Q, a bit back?"

You say "Savah, you're next."

From afar, Alorn takes a number for the queue, and volunteers to log if you 
  don't get any better offers.

You paged Alorn with 'You're after Savah, and danke.'.

Savah says "Not that I have much important to say. In my experience, activity 
  follows one or a few very active players, who actively prod others into 
  interacting with them. It doesn't matter much if this is the chief or not. 
  Sorrow's End as never been as active as when Ruah was there, for instance."
Savah says "But getting active players is not something one can choose or pass 
  laws about. THe best we can do is be active ourselves to the best of our 
  ability. And try to find others who are, and tempt them to join in."

From afar, Reedsnap asks to be put on the Q.

MountainWart says "Seduce them to the dark side. ;)"

You paged Reedsnap with 'Current Q is Savah, Alorn, you. Danke.'.

Savah says "All tribes have somethign special, something that people can find 
  there. I think people shoudl focus on those things, and stick to them. Be 
  different and original, if you can. Mushers are always looking for new ploys 
  :)"
Savah grins at MW. "A star wars inspired tribe might eb something."
Savah says "Me, I focus on sorrow as the peaceful place where nothing happens. 
  Sometimes, that's attractive too when everybody else fight :)"
Savah says "End ramble, I'm done."

You say "Alorn's next."

From afar, Firesong is back and still has something to say.

Alorn says "There's really only so much that can be done with an idle tribe. If
  you're the only person who logs in frequently, or log and sit and no one
  shows up for hours, or are even one of two or three people who ever show up,
  that limits the possibilities of what you can accomplish. Advertising doesn't
  really help in and of that you have to have someone to do it -- and you have
  to have something worth offering. The tribes that are capped/reaching max
  right now look, in most cases, to be book tribes, and the ones that are
  asleep are clones. (How many wolfrider tribes do we have?)"

Savah .. o O ( 11, I think. )

Alorn says "But is there -really- anything that can happen with it? Sure, you
  can close existing tribes, but which ones do you start with? The least active
  ones, which exist because they are someone's creation, with time and effort
  and such things invested? Who goes first? .. On the other side of the coin,
  can you really afford to open more tribes? If people send in brilliant apps
  for 'em and have people willing to play in them and so on and so forth, then
  what?"

MountainWart eyes Obsidian.

Savah needs to depart, and nods a lot at Alorn as she goes. "Good night, 
  fellow chiefs."

Winnowill pages: You could have a fight on your hands with MountainWart and 
  Obsidian. Move fast and set up a time when you all can chat

Savah goes home.
Savah has left.

From afar, MountainWart wants to respond, in case ya missed it.

Natil aighs at her house net. :p
Natil missed anything after Alorn getting on the queue, folks.

Winnowill interceeds. "This is a Chiefmeet, not a scene for altercation, 
  MountainWart."

Obsidian supposes this is an informal gathering? I cannot stay here long 
  either since I am at home as well.

You say "No, Obsidian, this is not an informal gathering; it is a formal 
  chiefs' meet."

Alorn finishes, she thinks, since RL just rang.

You say "Also: folks, I'm out of here in 11 minutes. Unless there is someone 
  who can chair the meeting in my absence, I'm going to declare it adjourned 
  at that time."

Obsidian meant to say informal as far as chiefmeets go.

From afar, Firesong had something to say now that she's off the phone.

WaveDancer moves for adjournment.

Kiera seconds the motion.

Obsidian says "As always, my timing is impecable :)"

You say "Okay. Meeting adjournment in ten minutes. I am now taking queue pages 
  for last minute comments. Mountainwart, I don't know what you or Obsidian 
  were about to fight about, but you were first to page me after I connected. 
  Make it fast. Firesong, you're after Mountainwart."

Reedsnap pages: You told me I was on Q after Alorn.

Long distance to Reedsnap: Natil sighs; yes, I know, but I also dropped my 
  connection and didn't know who spoke in my absence.

From afar, Reedsnap nods... Although Alorn was still speaking when you 
  reconnected.

You say "Reedsnap is after Firesong. Eight minutes until I bamf, so please 
  make it fast, people."

MountainWart wasn't about to fight about -anything-! Ugh. What I was GOING to 
  say is that I am chief or Chief second of not one, but two book tribes. 
  Which are also two of the most inactive tribes around these days. I don't 
  play a single wolfrider, but my glorious troll and GoBack tribes are failing 
  for lack of active players.
MountainWart says "So it's not book tribes that are working as compared to 
  made up tribes... wolfriders are the reason most people come here and play 
  and I don't think that's gonna change, cos ultimately we gobacks and trolls 
  are just puppets in their schemes.. or that's how they see it anyway."

Natil's plumber she has to deal with arrives. Winnowill, I know you're 
  logging; I have to bamf, people, and it has to be now, my apologies. Please 
  go ahead and make what comments need to be made until 3pm. Thanks.

MountainWart shrugs, "Done."

Natil grfs at plumbing problems in general, and must now bamf.

[Back to Winnowill's POV as Natil has to bamf....]

WaveDancer thinks she's seen enough and fades into the waters.
WaveDancer goes home.

Firesong says "As chief of another inactive book tribe, the olbar, I will say
  that the whole mush has activity cycles that people have to recognize. Right
  now people are busy with exams and holidays, for example. There are times
  when I thought the olbar were deader than dead, but they rebounded at times."
Firesong is done.

You say "Reedsnap?"

Winnowill officially takes the Q. Page me for positions.
Winnowill holds an empty Q and Reedsnap is not idle. Opening the floor for
  other topics.

Reedsnap thinks that creating new tribes shouldn't be impossible (after all,
  that's how the Traders happened-- even though we're often reminded of our
  actual status as a "pseudo-tribe," whatever that means-- and I think the
  Traders have done a pretty good job, activity-wise). However... like Usenet
  newsgroups, tribes are much much easier to create in the first flush of
  excitement than they are to destroy when they've fallen apart and into
  terminal inactivity. So I urge people... as much as possible, direct the new
  and enthusiastic players who want to make their own rules toward an existing
  place. Praise them, tell 'em to go on in as a newcomer to the tribe, learn
  the ways, and then work on livening it up with new ideas. Send 'em to me, my
  tribe can travel somewhere, and they can join a tribe we visit. Send 'em to
  stay at Ravenholt first as a visitor, then eventually to stay there. Send'em
  anywhere first, before a new tribe. I think new tribe should be a last
  resort. End.

Winnowill nods. There are a good deal of tribes that are overlooked. Who will
  offer to run up a lost for the Chiefs of all tribes, noting which are active
  Vs. inactive
Winnowill ahems. A list, mind.
Winnowill nods to Reedsnap's Channel comment. Will someone volunteer to be the
  Central Listmaker?

You say "Very well, Reed. I'll look forward to getting the list so that I can
  refer newbies."
You say "Next topic?"

WinterSong goes home.

You say "Take it off the Channel. That is why we are here."

Kiera goes home.

Obsidian was just too impatient for the Q :}

You say "The Q is open, and therefore the floor is open"

Obsidian nods.

You say "Are there any other topics, or shall I move for adjournment?"

Obsidian says "May as well adjourn. Looks like most folks have left."

You say "MountainWart, the floor is open with one move for Adjournment."

Obsidian says "And I have no idea what's already been discussed anyway :}"

MountainWart agrees with adjournment and Obsidian, would like to talk with you
  privately.

Obsidian gulps and wonders if he is in trouble? :}

Reedsnap agrees with adjournment (and apologizes for barely making the 'meet.)

Firesong says "I say we adjourn. I think we hit the big topics. Did pretty well
  without Geo."

You say "The Motion for Adjournment has been made and Seconded, as well as
  Thirded. Meeting is Adjourned, log suspended for Natil's approval."

Reedsnap thanks Winnowill for taking care of the meet's end.
Reedsnap waves to all and goes on home.

Winnowill nods. "My pleasure."

Reedsnap goes home.

Obsidian goes off to the trollish council chambers...
Obsidian says "Laters folks."

[End log.]